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fuck ron paul

January 6th, 2008

As Fake Steve points out, Ron Paul is a pretty decent candidate, except for his freakin’ crazy nut-job radical pro-life anti-abortion stance, or as FSJ says so eloquently, “you gotta lets the ladies control their lady parts.” Seriously, this is a show-stopper, a deal-breaker, game over right there, and I don’t understand for the life of me how Ron Paul’s incredibly vocal supposedly progressive core constituency of 23-year-old male Internet addicts can overlook this honkingly awful and horribly antiquated area of his platform.

Seriously, it’s 2008 — even the most hard core pro-life zealot would have to agree that this country already had this conversation, and there are other important conversations we desperately need to have. Let’s move on to the more pressing matters at hand.

~Jeff

Iconoclast63

While it’s true that Ron Paul is pro-life, he is also anti-federal authority over the issue. He merely contends that federal courts have no jurisdictional authority to force the states to rule on the matter themselves. Each state, according to RP, will be free to decide for themselves. This position does not even compare to typical pro-lifers, in that they want a federal ban on all abortions.

Taken in this light, his personal philosophy does not translate to political will, and therefore should not be seen as a dealbreaker, in my humble opinion.
PK

I’m pro-choice, but I’ve always had some sympathy for the pro-life position. When does life begin? I don’t think anyone knows. Ron Paul is an OB/GYN doctor and knows far more about the development of babies than most people. He points out that we can now keep babies viable even at one pound. I am in favor of legal abortions because I don’t think a fetus soon after conception is a human being, but I’m not so sure about later in the pregnancy.

I think your argument that the answer to this question is so obvious is mistaken. It’s a difficult problem and it always will be. Are you in favor of partial birth abortions? If not, where do you draw the line. It’s not easy, and I’m not so comfortable playing around with human lives like that. There are some who have proposed that human life doesn’t begin until several months after pregnancy. Are you ok with this? Is it their “choice” to kill an infant because they don’t believe it’s a human? This is why I think Dr. Paul’s solution is sensible even if you’re pro-choice, leave it to the states to sort out. The more complicated the problem, the more localized should be the government’s involvement.
EARL

you can’t argue with an idiot, nor can you educate him when there is really nothing between the ears…..
No, Jeff is beyond help……
So move on to more important issues, such as a trip to the store for more toilet paper….makes more sense than reading his waste…..
http://ldopa.net Jeff

There’s certain things that we decide as a country. One of the things we’ve decided is that women have the right to do whatever they want with their bodies. We’ve also decided, as a people, that black people can use the same drinking fountains as white people. In general, we’re moving towards individual freedoms rather than having government legislate morality for us. That’s a good thing.

Ask yourself this: if Ron Paul was suggesting that it be up to individual states to decide if black people could continue to drink from the same drinking fountains as white people, would that be ok? Because that’s pretty much what you’re saying.
http://darwinator.wordpress.com Darwinator

Jeff,

For the sake of this discussion, let’s assume you think it’s wrong for a mother to kill her child after it is born.

What about during delivery? Is it okay for the mother to order the baby to be terminated at that point? Let’s say her reasoning is that the birth is painful and she’s changed her mind about wanting the baby. Can she have the baby killed during delivery?

To shorten the back and forth, let’s say you don’t think that’s cool. At that point, the difference between you and Ron Paul is one of drawing a line to define when human life begins. Seemingly, both of you would agree that murdering human beings is bad.

When do *you* believe human life begins?
http://ldopa.net Jeff

Don’t change the goal posts.

But more to the point, I believe life begins whenever the woman who is having the baby thinks it begins. I don’t get a vote on this one — it’s her body, her uterus, and her call. Not yours. Not mine. Not Ron Paul’s.
http://darwinator.wordpress.com Darwinator

> Don’t change the goal posts.

Stretch yourself a little here slick, see if your point of view is actually internally consistent before you mouth off at a man who has spent a large portion of his life actually delivering babies.

> But more to the point, I believe life begins whenever the woman who is having the baby thinks it begins.

So, you *are* okay with the mother killing her baby after it is born? As long as she doesn’t yet acknowledge that its life has begun, it wouldn’t be murder.

Try again.
mike

My show stopper for for _all_ the other candidates is their lack of understanding or willingness to ignore monetary policy and macroeconomics.

Any baby, dead or alive, will not want to be around when the economic potential of our financial instruments approaches zero. Our current (and as of the early 1900′s) monetary system is essentially designed to have a finite life. Ron Paul is the only candidate that seems to understand this and additionally the know-how and agenda to steer policy in a more proper and sustainable direction.

When life begins or ends or which states have legal abortions is not going to matter much when ‘the Great Depression’ no longer refers to 1929 and ‘the Civil War’ as we now know it will be prefixed with a numerical adjective indicating its position in a series.
Tom

Abortion again Jeff? Ugh….I reiterate: Make Tom happy and call it murder. Kill as many people of any age, race, or gender you like, just please remove the bullshit PC label/justification.

And I agree with RP, the determination of the individual’s right to baby-murder should be left with the states and not the federal courts.
Jimmy

“…keeping babies viable at one pound”. I’m surprised Glaxo or Pfizer hasn’t already stamped a trademark on that one. How many of the 46% who “survive” actually do so into a dignified adulthood. Anyway, I don’t even really want to get into this, as I don’t think there could be a more bullshit smoke-screening issue than abortion rights. It’s an issue that gets dragged out every few years in an attempt to polarize us; it’s a close cousin of gay rights and gun control. There may be a few strokes of the pen here and there on either side of the aisle to make it harder for the opposition to get what they want, but to fear outright revocation or abolishment is just silly. It’s political suicide for those that hold seats still influenced by legitimate elections, and nothing more than a scare tactic for those in positions where elections are nothing more than a meaningless formality. Which brings me to my last point:
While it’s wonderful that we can still have an active discussion rather than reminisce about a time when we could talk about such matters, the issue as it pertains to the subject of Ron Paul is moot, as he will not even get within a sniff of the White House.
http://www.chinaexpat.com Ernie

Don’t pick on Jeff – reproductive rights come first. Let the Iraq War rage on, and the economy continue to be eviscerated for the benefit of international bankers – Jeff doesn’t like RP’s stance on abortion. The fact that RP would make the whole issue hands off to Federal hellish good intentions doesn’t matter – it’s simply that RP’s stance differs from Jeff’s. That should be enough for all of us.
Rachel

Jeff- Who the fuck are these people? I want them to go away, and take Ron Paul with them. The only thing soothes my annoyance is knowing that Ron Paul and his jackass minions will be completely out of the national news in four short weeks.
Jennifer

They’re the Ron Paul fan base: tedious 23-year old, privileged white males who have no understanding of the correlation between one person’s rights and another person’s rights.

In short, they’re biding their time before they can grow up and become the same assholes their dads are and vote for Huckabee. And why not? Neither believes in evolution.
http://www.chinaexpat.com Ernie

Rache, JenJen – I understand 1st Amendment rights, so does RP, which is why we must listen to grumpy broads on the rag spew their hatred. Hey, you even get to vote! OMG we should vote for Obama- RIGHT!? He’s totally cuter than those other creepy candidates, isn’t he? RP and his supporters are so, like, totally retarded. Hillary and Obama talk about cool stuff like change, and RP talks about weird stuff like not policing the world and basing our currency on something tangible – BORING! OMG Gilmore Girls is on! Gotta go!
http://darwinator.wordpress.com Darwinator

Rachel and Jennifer,

Your boy Jeff posted this to reddit. Honestly, you think he doesn’t want people to come here from reddit? Perhaps, if that’s true, he should rethink the strategy of posting his stuff there?

Now, I came here because I though Jeff might man up and actually explain his views that are so much nobler and wiser than Ron Paul’s. It seems I’ve over-estimated Jeff’s moxie. It’s trivially easy to shout a bunch of insults and then run away. It’s much harder to defend your views when you’re called on them.

From what Jeff’s written above he supports a mother’s right to murder a baby whenever she wants. The child’s status as “alive” is completely subjective and completely open to interpretation by the mother.

That can’t really be what he believes can it?

The next, obvious position he’s going to fall back to is that the moment of birth delineates life / non-life. Any idea how easy that’s going to be to shoot down? Again, so easy to say that it’s a woman’s right to choose and then refuse to back it up.

By all means run your snide little mouths, that’s your right. Alternatively, come play with the grown ups and you might learn something.

Children.
Jennifer

Rather than enter into a discussion with a collection of dumbasses too stupid to Google fetal development, I’ll sit here and console myself with the fact that Ron Paul is going to lose, and lose big, and he’s never been and never will be a viable candidate.
http://ldopa.net Jeff

I’m not really interested in getting into a long-winded, boring discussion about when life begins. Especially not with “Darwinator.”

The thing that I’ve really gotten out of this is that Ron Paul is clearly offering you guys power. You feel like he’s empowering you. He’s saying, “Hey, for a long while, you haven’t felt like you have any power to stop your fellow Americans from dying in the Iraq War — let me give you some power over the Iraq War.” And he’s saying, “Hey, I noticed we’re borrowing a lot of money as a nation and spending it in fucked up ways, and you feel like that’s out of control — let me give you some power over our nation’s economy.”

But he’s also saying that he wants to give me power over my neighbor’s reproductive rights, and honestly, that’s a power I neither want nor deserve. That’s a right that removes some of my neighbor’s rights and my neighbor’s personal freedoms, and Jimmy’s right — the issue is of the same divisive ilk as the conversations about gay marriage and gun control. I’m not sure why it’s coming around again, but I guess Republicans like to keep asking the question until they get the answer from the electorate that they like. Anyway, I thought about it for a while, and it’s the issue where me and Ron Paul part ways for good.

Luckily, most Ron Paul supporters will never have to think very seriously about the issue of reproductive rights, because they practice the most effective form of birth control there is: frenetic masturbation to broadband Internet porn in their parents’ finished basements.
http://darwinator.wordpress.com Darwinator

> I’m not really interested in getting into a long-winded, boring discussion about when life begins.

Well done child. Well done. Make a whole bunch of whiny noises then refuse to discuss the issue like an adult. Just so you know, Jeffrey, you aren’t fooling anyone.

You just got your ass handed to you when you mixed it up with “the kids from reddit.”

For the record, the difference between you and Ron Paul on the issue of abortion is that he has thought about the issue and has a sensible, reasoned, consistent position on the topic. You have tired, trite, childish ramblings and no consistency at all. Think about that, your vaunted pro-choice position fell apart the minute it was prodded gently. It didn’t even require a push.

What a fucking mental midget you are Jeff.
http://ldopa.net Jeff

SIDENOTE: There are two ways to win an Internet Argument:

1) Using the double fists of Logic and Reason, win the Internet Argument, while keeping in mind that chances are you really haven’t influenced anyone’s thinking in any major way.

or

2) Using a series of personal attacks, continue to repeat that You Have Won The Internet Argument over and over until you feel that people will believe that you have won the Internet Argument. If you do this loudly and publicly enough, someone out there will be dumb enough to believe you.

Kudos, D., on taking the second road, the road well-traveled. Also, bonus points for coming over here and pissing all over the comments, but then not allowing comments on your own blog.
Rachel

Jeff, you posted this to reddit? What in the world made you actively engage these people? I was serious when I said they should go away- bringing them into your conversations only means they are out there talking that much longer. There’s no more point in engaging these folks in public discourse than there is in holding a conversation with a fly buzzing in your face. The only effective thing to do, nationally or personally, is swat them away and keep on. (They only live for a day, after all. Then, as Jennifer said, they become miserable middle-aged Huckabee voters like their miserable middle-aged dads. Except their dads managed to reproduce.)

Also, I appreciate that your comments are open for public discussion. But it’s your house, and certainly anyone who isn’t house-trained enough to know not to call the host a “fucking mental midget” should be shown the door, but quick.
Justin

Hi Jeff,

You’re right not to get sucked into this “where-to-draw-the-line” problem. It’s a serious problem for everybody. (Michael Tooley, who’s a big-shot philosopher at U-Colorado at Boulder argues that infanticide is morally permissible because neither fetuses nor infants satisfy the conditions he thinks are necessary for having a moral right to life. So that’s a little far out. But taken to the other extreme, the pro-life argument could claim, as Catholic Church does, for example, that every sperm must be given a legitimate, serious shot at fertilizing an egg, otherwise it’s wrong. And that seems kind of far-out, too.)

But all this is beside the legal point. The Court says that the right to an abortion is entailed by the right to privacy, and the right to privacy is protected by the constitution’s due process clauses. This is the law. The Court’s decision is not based on “when human life begins,” nor should it be–as one of your commentators points out, nobody knows when human life begins.

And anyways, even in abortion is wrong, there still might be good reasons why, as a matter of public policy, we ought to protect the right to have one. Adultery is wrong, after all, and we don’t outlaw it. Having the cops investigate and arrest adulterers seems to be a very bad idea. Since the reality is that abortions are going to happen whether they’re legal or not, maybe they ought to be legal and safe, instead of illegal and very dangerous.

But maybe you oughtn’t have posted this to reddit. You bait crazies, and crazies come a-runnin.
cauley

I didn’t even know there was such a thing as reddit. I’m so OLD. Can someone email it to me as a gif or wav file? Thanks.
Evan

Here you go Cauley.
Jennifer

I’m glad for these people. I didn’t understand who Ron Paul supporters were; now I know. I also didn’t realize that they were actually pro-life; I just thought they didn’t care one way or another. I also didn’t realize that they were so just plain old stupid.

Plus, it gave me the opportunity to check out Ron Paul’s issues page, which gave me four or five more reasons to say ‘fuck Ron Paul.’

And I think it’s good to have the eighth grade writing and rhetorical skills of Ron Paul supporters on display. They’re their own counter-argument.
Rachel

I agree, Jennifer- The little show put on by the above posters has been extremely edifying.

I didn’t know anything about Ron Paul or his supporters before this demonstration. Thanks to the above, I didn’t even have to go out of my way to figure out that RP’s politics are shit and his fanbase is hateful little boys who support anyone that gives them an opportunity to vent their impotence. They laid it right out there. Thanks, guys!
Nick

Obi-ron Paul-obi

Widely respected for his stubborn belief that the whole universe should be run just like his neighborhood on the backwater planet Tatooine, Obi-ron spends a lot of time wistfully remembering the Old Republic. He practices a peculiar interpretation of The Force, in which reducing government to only local control and returning to the gold standard is the answer. Obi-ron reluctantly returned the contributions of the Tusken Raiders and Jawas, whose politics of ethnic slaughter and droid slave trade he justifies as “states rights”. While his anti-Empire foreign policy excites the Rebel Alliance, it’s pretty much a Jedi mind trick. He’s still a crazy old guy living in the desert.

Source:
http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/sfo/526482501.html
http://www.chinaexpat.com Ernie

Yeah, you got it Rachey, “hate/little/impotence”. Ouch, my vulnerable male pride! Your “little show” features expletives and blanket put downs. The RP show is about debating facts and getting real. Usually not an arena where women do well; you little ladies usually excel in the “I’m right cuz I’m me” realm of fancy, but you’re welcome to join if you can stop cussing and get a grip, honey.
Jimmy

I bet Ernie is a cowboy every year for Halloween.
http://www.chinaexpat.com Ernie

I bet Jimmy’s dreams feature him sitting behind cowboys riding on powerful stallions.
Jimmy

Is that code for something? Are you coming on to me? Is that cowboy you, Ernie? And the stallion? Dr. Paul, I presume? You asking me if I’m down with RPP?

Look, I’m sorry if I crossed a line. But just because your 4th-grade Halloween costume still fits does not mean you need to pull it out and parade it around every year. You look silly, and getting Ron Paul elected to the presidency is not going to make it any less so. Cowboys are a theme more befitting of the current administration, anyway. In any event, just promise me that if “RP” takes it all the way come November, you’ll try something new for Halloween the following year. How about a fetus? You know, like maybe a scary pirate-fetus.
Ernie

Ohhhh, you weren’t sharpshooting me, Jim!? And I was gonna post that YOU officially brought the thread down to grade-school level.

Sorry about that. You can understand me and maybe others with the courage to think for ourselves resemble wild stallions, who have been herded into pens of self-righteous brood mares and geldings who smell our open-range musk and constantly nip at our flanks with envy and fear, so that we lash with out with razor sharp hooves at friend and foe alike, to take the metaphor to an unmerciful end.

BTW, great idea for getting the thirty-something too-ironic-for school crowd on the RP Train to Washington – Naughty by Nature doing “Ya down wid’ RPP?”
Jennifer

Oh, Ernie, Ernie. Nobody cares what you think.

Although ‘open-range musk’ is going to crack me up all day, and ‘taking the metaphor to an unmerciful end’ is a delightfully tough nut to parse. Is it the ‘end’ or the metaphor that’s ‘unmerciful’? Never mind, never mind. It’s a joy just as it is.
Evan

I’m shocked that this thread has not mentioned Hitler or the Nazis yet. Chop, chop… get on top of it people!
Ernie

Thought you didn’t care, Jen-jen.
Just like a chick. Ya hate me so much you’re in love. I’m supposed to argue politics with the likes of you? Come here so’s I can smack your ass. Now gimme a kiss.
Jennifer

Did you hit yourself in the head with one of your hooves?
Jimmy

I like donuts, but I LOVE Ron Paul.

-Jimmy Hitler
(Of the Connecticut Nazis)
Mantari

Nobody is more fabulous than Ru Paul, and she certainly has *my* vote!
Rachel

Mantari-

Hell, yes! Screw this Clinton v. Obama crap. RuPaul brings Blacks, Women and Men together all in one big, leggy package!

And clearly, the campaign song calls for us to come together across party lines to address the challenges facing America’s working families:

Work, turn to the left!
Work, now turn to the right!
Work, sashay shante!

Ru Paul 2008- HeShes for America!
RonPaulBot

Ron Paul! Ron paul, ron paul. ron ron ron ron, RON PAUL. States rights, ron paul. Bretton Woods, ron paul. paul paul? Iraq ron paul. ron paul ron paul R-r-r-rrrrrrrRON PAULLLLLL.
Nick

One word: rabies.
Sanity

The gold standard is not magic. The gold standard will not do anything but send the country into a sad bizarre recession. Gold is a commodity. Gold isn’t even a very valuable commodity. Gold is not money. Money is a representation of perceived value. Hell for a year or so we could have gone to a Beanie Baby standard.
Rachel

Under RuPaul, we will go to the Solid Gold standard, whereby our currency will be based on the median value of borderline obscene dancing, lamE costumes, and the bizzaro drag queen puppet, Madame. Marylin McCoo will be appointed chair of the Federal Reserve.

Vote RuPaul!
Josh McCormick

You all have inspired me.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jmccorm/2186017036/in/set-72157603692669659/
http://darwinator.wordpress.com Darwinator

> Kudos, D., on taking the second road, the road well-traveled.

Jeff,

You still didn’t address the issues. You still avoid stating your positions. You’ve made morally reprehensible statements that you refuse to defend or discuss.

You invited people here, ostensibly to engage in discussion then refuse to discuss because you know your position is indefensible.

What you’ve done is weak and my statement is not one of name calling. It’s an analysis of what you’ve done.

Feel free, at any time, to clarify your position on abortion. I just realized that there’s another significant difference between your position and Ron Paul’s, people at least know what he thinks on the issue. You don’t even have the balls to do that.

It’s your blog, do what you want. It’s just weak is all. But being weak is certainly your right, just don’t pretend you’re this tough guy who wants to discuss things. You aren’t. You don’t.
http://ldopa.net Jeff

What part of “I believe in a woman’s right to choose what goes on with her body and her pregnancy” are you too fucking dumb to get?

This. I believe in this. Can you read that? That’s what I believe.

This is going nowhere — I’m closing comments on this before it gets any worse. What a bunch of assholes Ron Paul’s constituency turned out to be! Go figure why he’s doing so poorly in the primaries.
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